Series: Admissions

Tools for influence and action

November 15, 2021 0:48:00
Kaltura Video

With a firm grounding in social science research and quantitative analysis, real-world policy issues are woven throughout our rigorous, hands-on curriculum. November, 2021.


Learn about opportunities to practice these skills in and out of the classroom and how they provide a toolbox of research, analytical, and management skills that are highly transferable across sectors and issue areas. This session features Professor Jonathan Hanson, chair of the master's program committee; Professor Brian Jacob, co-director of the Youth Policy Lab; Professor Shobita Parthasarathy, director of the Science, Technology, and Public Policy program; and Jennifer Niggemeier, director of Graduate Career Services & Alumni Relations. Student & Academic Services will also be on hand to answer questions about the application process.



0:03:05.5 Jonathan Hanson: Good afternoon and welcome. My name is Jonathan Hanson, and I'm the Director of the Masters Programs here at the Ford School of Public Policy. Welcome to our webinar, which is the second in this series, where today we're talking about tools for influence and action in public policy. I'd like to introduce the fellow members of our faculty and staff who are here to talk to you today. Among us is Professor Brian Jacob, who is an economist and studies education policy. Brian, do you want to say a couple of words briefly? 

0:03:47.7 Brian Jacob: Hello. Good morning/afternoon, everybody. Yeah, I have been at the Ford School for probably 14 or 15 years. I teach courses in program evaluation, education policy, and I've been doing a bunch of work with local Michigan school districts and other organizations serving Michigan youth.

0:04:22.0 JH: Thank you, Brian. Also joining us is Professor Shobita Parthasarathy, who is here today, and, Shobita, can you say a couple of words about yourself? 

0:04:32.2 Shobita Parthasarathy: Sure. Hi, everybody. So, as Jon said, I'm a professor at the Ford School and I've been here for a while. I also direct the Science Technology and Public Policy program. I teach courses regularly on the politics of public policy, which is one of the core courses, and I think we'll talk about that today. I also teach qualitative research methods, and then occasionally courses both at the undergraduate and graduate level focused on different aspects in science technology policy and society. And that's where my research is, and as part of the STPP program there are also a lot of research, community engagement and public policy engagement activities, in terms of thinking about equity and emerging technology and science.

0:05:24.0 JH: Thank you very much. And also joining us today is Jennifer Niggemeier, the Director of Graduate Career Services and Alumni Outreach. Jennifer, please say hi.

0:05:36.0 Jennifer Niggemeier: Hi, everybody, welcome. Look forward to sharing a little bit about the ways in which the work of our office, and in particular the work that I'm doing with faculty member Morela Fernandez around our new leadership initiative as part of the influence and action toolkit. So more to come on that soon.

0:06:00.8 JH: Thank you very much. So my role in the Ford School is also, I'm also a member of the faculty. I teach statistics every year. I also teach one of the politics of public policy courses, and I teach one of the upper level econometrics courses from time to time.

0:06:20.6 JH: We'd like to start today, just like to give a bit of an overview of our programs here before we dig into some specifics. And the theme today, as you know, is to talk about the kinds of tools that a Ford School education can provide. And there's a really a range of important skills that we seek to develop in our two programs, the Master's of Public Policy program and the Master's of Public Affairs programs. It starts with policy analysis. We pride ourselves here at the Ford School with providing the sort of analytical tools that are needed to understand whether policies work, what their implications are, and how they can be more efficient and effective. So that comes in different forms. We have statistical or quantitative approaches to looking at data and understanding how policy works, we see it from an economic perspective, using the tools of economics to understand from a cost benefit analysis perspective, how policy may work.

0:07:31.2 JH: And we can also look at it from more qualitative approaches, and the faculty you have before you today can talk about all those various forms of looking at public policy. We also seek to develop one's political skills for analyzing public policy. We can think of policy, first of all, as being from a technical perspective and what works and what doesn't work, but we also need to recognize that policy-making happens in a highly politicized process, and understanding the politics of the policy-making process is very important for being effective as someone who can influence policy outcomes and understand how that policy can be adopted and be implemented as we would like it to be.

0:08:19.4 JH: Another crucial skill that our program hopes to develop is our communication skills. We pride ourselves here at the Ford School as having a very strong writing component. We've got four excellent writing tutors who work with our students, and many of our courses have intensive policy writing requirements, such as writing policy memos or policy analyses. But not only writing requirements, we also have opportunities to work on public speaking skills and presentation skills in some of our courses through simulation activities or through class presentations, or the like.

0:09:01.9 JH: A new strength that we're building in recent years has to do with the leadership initiatives that Jennifer mentioned just a couple of minutes ago. In our MPP program, for example, we have new courses in the Public Management series that relate to leadership and how to lead oneself and how to lead organizations. And relatedly, developing new skills in negotiations and conflict resolution. So we have new courses that we're really excited about so that people can learn how to negotiate in a highly contentious environment and reach solutions to problems.

0:09:42.1 JH: So those are the broad skills that we seek to develop in our programs. But they come in two different forms. And I just wanted to spend a couple of minutes outlining what those... The two main programs that we have here at the Ford School before we turn to some more specific questions. So the larger of our two programs is the Master's of Public Policy degree. It is a two-year program, and it is open to essentially anyone with an undergraduate degree. Generally, we look for students who have some prior work experience, some years of work experience, although I also see, and this is in contrast to our shorter MPA program, which is really targeted for mid-career, people in their mid-careers. The MPP is... The two-year program doesn't have quite as long of a work expectation prior to coming to school.

0:10:40.9 JH: Now, as a two-year program, we have a lot of time to really explore both a broader set of required courses to build those policy skills, but also lots of room for elective courses in your areas of policy interest. So in short, we have a quantitative sequence, which consists of statistics and program evaluation, and Brian and I are both teaching that sequence. We have an economic sequence of two courses, microeconomics, and then a second course which can cover economics in the public sector, economics in developing countries, there are a few choices available there. We have a course on values and ethics, because not only do we want to analyze public policy from a technical perspective, but to understand the ethical implications of our policies, and what values that we want to put forward.

0:11:36.0 JH: And our motto at the Ford School is "Putting forth evidence-based policies for the public good," and so that's a fundamental value that we try to instill among all our students. We also have a series of courses with public management, which is where the leadership component kicks in. And then the courses that I mentioned before with respect to negotiations or conflict resolution. Now, both of our programs have an experiential learning component as well. And in the Master's of Public Policy program, we have a couple of avenues for that. The main one is a summer internship requirement. It usually would occur after the first summer typically, although for some students who are here as part of a joint master's program, it could happen in later summer. But this is a 10-week internship, which is associated with a course credit. And through the Careers Services Office, we link people up, help link people up with an internship and embed that as part of our training.

0:12:47.7 JH: A second smaller piece of experiential learning is a simulation requirement. It's called the integrated policy exercise. And on a weekend in January, all our students get together and take on the role of being a policymaker, or a stakeholder in some sort of policy decision, which is announced that morning, and then they spend the rest of the day, or the next couple of days, actually, working through that scenario. So those are the required components. And then there's room also for substantial elective coursework and policy areas of interest.

0:13:23.9 JH: The second program is our one-year program, the Master's of Public Affairs. The target group of students here are people in their mid-careers, so the expectation would be a student who has had at least five years of work experience in government or the military or non-governmental organizations in a public service affair. Now, this is a power-packed one-year program. So the number of elective courses is smaller, but also the number of required courses is smaller, so we can fit it into this sequence. So there's an econ requirement, there's a statistics requirement, there's the value and ethics requirement, and a writing requirement, just like in our other courses.

0:14:06.2 JH: And in this case, the experiential learning component comes at the end of the year in the form of a five-credit capstone project, where students are linked up with a partner external to the university and work on a project, which may involve research or some other work related to an organization that the student thinks they may want to work with, or at least the kind of organization a student may want to work with longer term.

0:14:36.5 JH: So those are the two big programs that we have. And what I'd like next to do is bring in my colleagues here so that we can start to talk about some of the details. And so first, I'd like to turn to Professor Jacob. And one of the things that we pride ourselves on here is our teaching of public policy analysis. And why would you say this is such an important part of our curriculum, and in what ways do we integrate policy analysis throughout our training? 

0:15:13.1 BJ: Oh, well, thanks, Jon. Yeah, policy analysis, I think, is critical, because... For a few reasons. One, I think many students don't know exactly what areas or careers they'll be going into right at the time of their program. What one is doing in one's life will change over time, and the issues of the day will change. So what is a really important and salient policy issue today will likely be something different in the future. And so I think what we try to teach students here is not specific answers to any given problem, but how to think about problems, how to approach problems, how to use a variety of tools, from economic theory to organizational theory, to quantitative analysis to qualitative analysis to identify some of the most salient issues of a problem and evaluate potential solutions. So that's the short summary.

0:16:39.8 JH: Thank you, Brian. Question then for Professor Parthasarathy. When you think about our training and you think about the kind of tools that students develop to cultivate an ability for influence in action, what do you think about in terms of our training that provides those sorts of skills? 

0:17:03.8 SP: So, I think one of the greatest things about being at the Ford School is that we are, I would say, very intellectually rigorous, we care a lot about providing students with analytic tools and conceptual tools for understanding and analyzing policy and politics and society. But we also give students opportunities to simulate those real world challenges in various ways and also do research in the real world, and so, in my own classes, I'm very committed to providing students with experiential learning opportunities that are more like simulations. So the course that I'm teaching right now, the politics course, involves a simulation in which students are debating a pending policy and throughout the course of the semester, they have to write a series of memos and really embody a stakeholder on one side of a debate, and then they have to debate one another as one of the culminating projects.

0:18:14.8 SP: My qualitative methods course includes, has students actually go out and go from a broad policy interest into developing a research idea and figuring out how to turn it into a research question, do preliminary research, expand it into a big project. And I think that all of us have stories like that of how we try to make the more theoretical, intellectual side of things really practical, but in addition to all of that, the Ford School has really wonderful resources to ensure that students can really bring a connection between the real world and what they're learning in the classroom.

0:18:58.5 SP: So, there are a ton of research centers, including the Science, Technology and Public Policy Program that I mentioned that I direct, where students have opportunities to work on real pressing issues, policy issues, to write policy briefs or longer reports to try to influence public conversation about those issues. I've worked with a number of students in that capacity, for example, and I know that many... That's true at many of the other research centers as well. And we also have classes that are just devoted to experiential learning opportunities, and I think Jon mentioned the IPE, but there's the applied policy seminar, there are a bunch of things like that. And then, I think we can still... Maybe one of you can tell me if I'm wrong, but we still distinguish ourselves as the only policy school that has this amazing writing center, and we have four dedicated writing instructors, and that gives you a sense of how important we think writing is, and not just us.

0:20:05.1 SP: We recognize that writing is incredibly crucial for communicating in a policy career, to make sure that your ideas are clear, concise, precise, and likely to be taken up, and so, we invest a lot of effort and resources into making sure that students really can hone their writing skills and communicate effectively throughout their time at Ford and when they finish. And of course, I guess I would just say finally that, in addition to all of that, there are all kinds of opportunities at the university writ large that provide students with opportunities for integrating the policy focus with other kinds of experiential learning.

0:20:50.7 JH: Thank you very much. Since Shobita mentioned it, one of the things to think about about the University of Michigan is that it's a school which has tremendous strength in graduate programs in many, many different areas, and so a lot of our students who are in our master's program are in joint degree programs with either public health or urban planning, or education, or the business school, and so there's... The Ford School itself is a relatively small, cohesive community, but in a very large university that provides many different opportunities for our students.

0:21:32.8 JH: But before we move on, I do have some questions for Jennifer about our leadership initiative, but I wanted... On the subject of student support, we've talked about support from our writing tutors, and I wonder if, Brian, you would be able to talk a little bit about the support that we can provide for students for whom maybe quantitative work is not exactly the first thing they think about, that they see themselves doing. We know that for many of us, including myself, I will say that math was something I thought I was done with by the time I went to college. It proved not to be true, but sometimes we need a little extra help, and so, Brian, I wonder if you could just talk about what we do to help support our students for whom this quantitative requirement may seem a bit daunting.

0:22:27.1 BJ: Yeah, great question. I think that's one of the best things about teaching quantitative courses at the Ford School, is that I feel as an instructor, as a professor, that I have the resources at my disposal to really ensure that every student, whether they came in loving numbers and math or came in a little bit uncertain of them, can come away with a really solid grasp of the main concepts we're teaching. So in the... Well, first of all, there's a math camp before students start the program that is available to help students refresh, get a refresher on basic high school or early college math that they may not have seen for a while.

0:23:24.4 BJ: Then during the course of the year, each of the quantitative courses has a teaching assistant, which operates a review session once a week. The faculty member will usually do two lectures or discussion-oriented classes during the week, and then every Friday, a graduate student will be available to lead or does lead a review for students in this material. So that's one great resource.

0:24:01.4 BJ: The other are office hours. So myself and all the other faculty that teach have at least several hours, posted office hours, but then for the most part, have kind of a policy of engaging with students whenever they have questions. I kind of have a rule that students can email me at any time, and I will try to get back to them and set up a time to talk to them, 24 hours. Most of the time I'm successful with that.

0:24:37.7 BJ: And then the third are tutors. So this is unlike any other program that I'm familiar with. In addition to the graduate students who are teaching assistants doing reviews, we have other students who have mastered a course who did really well in the course in prior years, who act as one-on-one free tutors for students that are struggling. I mean, this is just a phenomenal resource, so within a few weeks of the course, you kind of feel like you're lost, you don't do so well on the first quiz, I often kind of proactively reach out to these students and say, Hey, I see you are struggling a bit. It is hard coming back to school after a while, or if you're not perfectly comfortable with some of this analytical work we're doing, I can connect you with a student who's gone through exactly the same thing and done really well, and they can spend an hour or two a week, one-on-one with you, for free, to make sure that you have a strong grasp of the material.

0:25:52.0 BJ: So I think between the math camp, between the math camp, the weekly review sessions, the office hours and individual one-on-one tutoring, it really is just a tremendous amount of resources that we can offer students, which is one of the reasons why our students are so successful.

0:26:18.0 JH: Thank you very much. Now, I would like to shift gears and bring in Jennifer, who can tell us about our new leadership program, which is a big emphasis that we have here, so Jennifer, please take it away.

0:26:34.6 JN: Yeah, thank you. So I want you to think about the whole Ford School package in the sense of, you've got this amazing toolkit of skills that the faculty just talked about, but the leadership initiative now is going to take that and add to it this sense of how am I as a person showing up in the world. And we think about defining leadership here, our definition is the behavioral process of having a positive impact on individuals, organizations and communities for the public good.

0:27:13.6 JN: So when we think about what does it mean to be an effective leader, sure, you want to have... You want a trained skill leader, but you also want someone who is leading and modeling in ways that are exemplifying the best of leadership practices. So in the leadership program, Morela Hernandez is the faculty lead. I'm the staff lead on it, and we tag-team and work very closely together, along with other faculty. But one of the things you'll be exposed to are various models of leadership, and one of those that we use, a really simple one, but a powerful one, is the Kouzes and Posner model, and it talks about the exemplary practices of leadership in five ways: Leaders model the way, they inspire a vision, they challenge the process, they enable others to act, and they encourage the heart.

0:28:12.2 JN: And so part of the leadership initiative is thinking about how am I going to show up along those dimensions, and where am I maybe really already strong at one of those, but what are some of the practices that maybe I need to lean into a little bit more. One of the ways we do that is as you are... For those of you that are in the MPP program, as you are on internship in a "real world" setting, we will pair you with an executive leadership coach that will walk with you and be a sounding board and a resource for helping you to look at how you're showing up on that internship, where are you struggling.

0:28:55.1 JN: In the MPA program, that experience with a leadership coach will run through what is right now winter semester, in conjunction with a leadership class that Professor Hernandez going to be offering. So what is the focus of that? When you think about being a leader who influences and makes an impact, it's the combination of the toolkit and the abilities, like the emotional intelligence to be at the table, to have your voice heard at the table, and so a lot of this is about knowing yourself and understanding your strengths, understanding your saboteurs, what are those stories that are in my head that I'm telling myself that become obstacles for me in speaking up in a class or at a meeting in my internship organization, and becoming aware of those so you can see it when it's happening and then think about how I can maybe shift or challenge myself to think about that in a different way.

0:30:04.0 JN: So we're going to run you through a series of assessments, we actually use the CliftonStrengths, and we will offer that to all of the admitted students over the summer before you start classes as a way to get to know each other, but also to be aware of what some of your strengths are as you move into this semester, and then there are several other assessments that will use along the way. I will say from the perspective of the students that had the leadership coaches this past summer on their internship, there probably were three ways in which they really grew and where the coach helped them.

0:30:39.8 JN: One isn't just tactical. I would call it a tactical domain of helping me think about how do I prepare for a presentation? How do I ask for more work when I'm not feeling like I'm working up to my potential, or maybe I have too much work and I need to approach my supervisor about how do I navigate this a little bit differently. The third way was, the second way is around observational awareness, what can you notice about effective leaders and effective leadership in others in the workplace, and what do I notice about that leadership in myself. When is someone effective? When has somebody maybe not been so effective, and how does that impact on the experience of those in the team and in the organization? 

0:31:33.1 JN: And I think the third way that we saw the coaches really being able to provide assistance to students as in a shift in thinking, to move from a fixed mindset into more of a growth mindset, where you're moving beyond some of the fears that may be unfounded, but boy, they are powerful stories in our heads, and challenging yourself to think about things with curiosity, to think about things with a sense of empathy and innovation, and thinking about, surrounding all of those things, what is the impact of my own lived experiences and how I'm viewing the world, and how I'm viewing others in how I want to make an impact in the world. So those are some of some of the main constructs around the leadership initiative, and I'm happy to field questions when we get to that.

0:32:32.2 JH: Thank you very much. Very nice overview. Well, it is time for questions, so I'm going to open up the floor to anyone who's out there who would like to raise questions. You can feel free to unmute yourself and ask the question to us, or if you prefer, you can put a question into the chat and we will take it up as we come along.

0:33:01.6 JH: While some of you may be formulating questions, I will take a moment just to mention one of the other components of our curriculum that I didn't talk about before. In the MPP, the two-year program curriculum, we do have these, what we call policy concentrations, so that students who are looking to have an emphasis in a particular policy area or in one of the other domains that we teach here at the School can take a concentration of courses and sort of come away with a sort of certificate of completion saying that they've completed this concentration.

0:33:43.7 JH: So we have a number of policy concentrations that are available, one is public policy analysis, which is our analytical tools concentration, and Professor Jacob is the lead on that concentration. We have another policy of concentration in public and non-profit management, which is what it sounds like, so a range of courses that have to do not only with management, but the leadership, both in the world of for-profit and non-profit arenas, and in the public domain as well.

0:34:18.1 JH: We have a policy concentration on social policy in all its forms, and so whether it be health or poverty policy or whatever it may be. There's a concentration on international policy, and by the way, we haven't mentioned it yet, but we have a fantastic International Policy Center here at the Ford School, which is very active with a range of talks and bringing in excellent speakers, everyone from Hillary Clinton to Susan Rice to, you name it, that we've had a great series of people come through, as well as ambassadors and retired ambassadors here on faculty, for those of you who are interested in international policy.

0:35:04.7 JH: And then lastly, there's a policy concentration on international economic development, so that kinda gives you the list. I do see a question that's shown up on the chat from Caroline, says: Could you briefly discuss research assistantship opportunities for MPP students with professors and/or research centers. Do these exist, or are these opportunities mostly limited to PhD students? Well, Professor Jacob, could I turn that question over to you first, since you're a director of one of these research centers? 

0:35:38.0 BJ: Yes, so the short answer is, there are a ton of opportunities for MPP students and actually for BA students as well, so the Youth Policy Lab, where I'm one of the faculty, co-directors, we have MPP students working as research assistants right now, as I speak, they are working away. I think we have a few each year, I know Poverty Solutions, which is another research center, has lots of MPP research assistants, the Education Policy Initiative does as well. I'm most familiar... Shobita, do you want to, can you say something about the other research centers, or your center at least.

0:36:35.2 SP: Sure, so yeah, I am assuming that most of the research centers have research opportunities for students, certainly that's true of the Science Technology and Public Policy Program. So for example, we have over the last couple of years started something called the technology assessment project, and we have there a group of undergraduates, Master's students in the Ford School and elsewhere who participate in that and then they, as part of that, they produce... We produced reports on... We've produced a report on vaccine hesitancy and institutional mistrust, we produced a report on the use of facial recognition technology in K-12 schools. We're currently working on a report on large language models, which is another type of artificial intelligence and its social equity and ethical implications, so we do a lot of that.

0:37:42.2 SP: And we're also going to be starting something called an applied research core, so that we'll have a stable of students who can write rapid response briefs and reports to... On pressing issues. So we have a number of opportunities, certainly, and then, of course, I also have opportunities for students to work on my own research projects. Most of the time we're talking about hourly research assistants, but occasionally we'll have the funds to have what are called graduate student research assistants, which means that that also includes tuition, so that's kind of nice. But those are more rare. So I've had one, I've had a few in recent years for different projects.

0:38:33.6 JN: Yeah, and I'll add to that, that there are a lot of students that do work with individual faculty members on their research, and we have another category of instructors that are our policymakers in residence, these are professionals that work in policy jobs around the world, and they come to the Ford School for a semester. And often while they are here teaching, they're also working on some research, and they often will hire a student to assist with that. And given that in my hat as director of career services, I pretty much see every student's resume, it is always surprising to me the number of student jobs and research positions across the university in different departments, like even Michigan Medicine, the hospital system here, has a number of students that will do research there.

0:39:30.9 JN: Institute for Survey Research and the different... Really, all the different departments, I've seen students have part-time research positions there, so there are a range of opportunities. Sometimes you have to do a little digging to make that happen, but you also can follow the trail of those before you in finding some of those. 'Cause once a Ford School student has been in one of those jobs, typically the department wants another Ford School student to continue that work the next year.

0:40:02.9 JH: Thanks very much. Other questions? 

0:40:18.1 Caroline: Hi, I've got another question, I'll speak it out instead of typing this time.

0:40:25.6 JH: Great.

0:40:25.9 Caroline: Which is, I have a background in economics, my BA in economics, and so I'm wanting to focus on quantitative policy analysis methods through the electives, and I'm wondering how... For the professors that teach these courses, how would you compare these courses in the MPP to just a master's in applied economics, for example? And I know I've been looking at both of these degrees at Michigan, excited about both. I know that the joint degree does exist, but I was hoping to only spend two years in school, not three, so I'm wondering how you would... Any advice you would have about this decision. Thanks.

0:41:06.4 JH: Brian, could you take that question? 

0:41:10.6 BJ: Sure. Yeah, so I think the MPP program is pretty flexible, so if you come in with a strong background... Students that come in with a strong background, maybe an economics major as an undergrad, will often waive out of the main MPP, economics and quantitative analysis courses. And in that case, you are free to take a whole bunch of other courses at the university. So there Jon Hanson, Professor Hanson, I should say, teaches kind of an advanced econometrics course, which is probably what students would take after they take the first two courses in their first year. So if you placed out of those, you could take that in Fall of your first year as an MPP student.

0:42:09.9 BJ: We also have students who take advanced courses in the economics department, in the political science department, in the school of information. Yeah, so I don't know whether the Master's of Applied Economics actually allowed other students to enroll in their classes. My guess is that might in part have to do with space constraints. But in general, I think there's a lot of flexibility with the MPP. So I think you could take as many and as rigorous courses as you would in the Master's of Applied Economics if you wanted to, but those aren't part of a required curriculum, it sounds like you would probably seek them out regardless.

0:43:07.7 Caroline: Thank you.

0:43:11.4 JH: I would just reinforce what Professor Jacob just said about the opportunity to take specific courses in other schools or departments. We offer a whole great range, and we also draw students in, like my econometrics course will bring in students from various places around the university, because there are only so many courses that provide a broad coverage of econometric methods beyond linear regression, that is taught in a very applied way, like what we do here. So I'm pretty proud of what we offer here, but also when you're looking for something that may be more specific, or more technical in other areas, they generally have those options.

0:43:54.8 JH: I think we might have time for one more question, but we're nearing the end of our scheduled presentation, so if you do have a question now would be a great time. Alright, well, I'm not seeing any, but I do want you to know that we are available for your questions, and you can follow up by looking at the contact information on And if you go there, you will see a yellow button on the front page that takes you straight to our application information page. So I really encourage you to do that. And, well, I do see Beth Soboleski is here, she's got one of our people who works with admissions, please speak up.

0:44:54.0 Beth Soboleski: Thanks, Jon. I just wanted to mention really quickly before we wrap up, that we do have another webinar coming up in a couple of weeks, it's on December 9th at 1:00 PM, and in it we're going to talk about some of the experiential components of the MPP program. And so that may be of interest to some of our prospective students who have joined us today, information about that is on the website, so I just wanted to throw that in before we wrapped up.

0:45:22.8 JH: Thank you very much, Beth. Well, we look forward to hearing from you and please, Tricia Schryer has put contact and email into the chat, I'll just speak it out loud for those of you who may be watching on video later. It's [email protected]. That's Ford School of Public Policy, [email protected]. Thanks again for coming. It's been a pleasure to talk with you today. And again, we look forward to hearing from you in the near future. Deadline for application is January 15th.

0:46:02.1 JN: Go blue.

0:46:02.2 JH: Go blue.